So… it’s been over a year since both formats launched, and it’s been a rather interesting time since none of the formats seem to get an edge… and when they do, something drastic happens…

I’m curios.. has any borkers choses side at all yet?

It seems like only a million dedicated Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players has been sold combined…. worldwide... so most people seem to hold off… and what seems to turn the tide to blu-ray’s advantage is that Sony has sold at least 3-4 million PS3s now…. while MS has only sold about 300.000 HD-DVD addons. What this has led too is that Blu-Ray movies have outsold HD-DVD 2 to 1 in the US and 3 to 1.

So Sony has won then?

If it only were that easy…

Until a while ago, HD-DVD only had one exlusive big american studio to back them up, Universal. While Blu-Ray had Sony, MGM and Fox while Warner, New Line and Paramount released titles on both platform. But out of nowhere for no reason more than 150 million dollars and a lot of lobbying… paramount announced that they will give up Blu-Ray for several reasons, including price of units and production of discs… and this is a pretty bad sign really… up until that point it looked like Blu-Ray had the advantage, but now it’s a more even playing field, and both sides get an equal amount of exclusive titles….

...so what will happen?

Well… for one thing it seems like DVD sales are going down as an effect of the new war… since people are waiting for one side to win, and don’t want to buy a movie again in a new format… so they buy nothing instead. DVD took a looooong time to reach its current success…. but DVD had the extreme advantage of not having any competitors… it just had to beat VHS… and well that’s like pizza beating a moldy baguette.

So why the heck do I start a topic about this?

Well, for one, [URL=http://www.play.com/DVD/Blu-ray/4-/3388938/Planet-Earth-Box-Set/Product.html]BBC’s Planet Earth[/URL] has been released for both formats, and if there’s anything that would stand out as the one thing to see in an HD format… that would be it.

Secondly, I have a HD projector, capable of 720p and a 106” canvas… a HD format would rock on that.

Thirdly… Sony has released (an extremely gimped) PS3 at an affordable pricepoint (earlier than expected… but at the cost of backwards compatibility), and with the (re-)introduction of the DualShock controller this spring, the list of things that keeps me from getting a PS3 is shrinking rapidly… especially since it now supports upscaling of DVDs to 720p as well that apparently is good enough for Arstechnica writers to use it as their main movie player. This has gotten me into considering getting a PS3 as a Blu-Ray/DVD player as well as gaming console. The really good thing about that is that if HD-DVD wins in the end, I still have a PS3… and if Blu-Ray wins, I got my movie player cheaper than most Blu-Ray players WITH an included PS3 that actually has some exclusives worth caring for these days. And is the PS3 operates quieter than a 360 I’d probably get most multiplatform titles for it. But no matter what a PS3 will have to wait until summer as earliest, because I’m getting married and that goes first and is definitely not for free.

Fourthly, I’m tired, not allowed to sleep by my diabetes and the forums didn’t have anything to reply on so I thought I’d start a new topic with Gregtastic amounts of text to keep myself busy.

The format war makes me glad I haven’t bought an HDTV yet.

I was playing with the idea of getting an HDTV a while back but decided not to pursue it after considering the media issue. We’ll all be much better off once this war is over, but there’s nothing saying somebody has to win the war. Remember DVD-R and DVD+R? They’re still around but most burners support both. I suspect we may see the same happen with the HD formats, at least on the read side. LG already makes such a drive for $300. Given that price for a first-in-class device, we might see them in a year for $100. Assuming the rest of the hardware in a player would work with both formats, the additional cost of making a player dual-format would be negligible.

The sales numbers are interesting but what might be more meaningful is the sales numbers for the media. The big question is whether people are buying Blu-Ray discs for all those PS3s.

To add to the fray, Apple is rumored to choose a side (or both) at Macworld 2008 in two weeks. We shall see… all I want is that blasted Mac Pro.

Raws - 04 January 2008 08:58 AM

To add to the fray, Apple is rumored to choose a side (or both) at Macworld 2008 in two weeks. We shall see… all I want is that blasted Mac Pro.

That’s big.  All the major product trendwhores will follow Apple’s suit.

I’m a consumer whore!

And how!

The thing I’ve found to be extremely interesting is that the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD cases are all the same blue and red (respectively) cases. Blue is easier to look at, so many Blu-Ray will win out in the end. Completely unfounded statement, but I’m just saying stuff now. Real consumers won’t get into buying anything until it’s become some commonplace that it’s hard for them to make a mistake. Nowadays, a DVD is a DVD (aside from all the different aspect ratios and quality of DVD). I’d bet that most Americans don’t even know what Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is and what this format war is about, nor have ever heard of it.

HeadWes - 04 January 2008 08:02 AM

The sales numbers are interesting but what might be more meaningful is the sales numbers for the media. The big question is whether people are buying Blu-Ray discs for all those PS3s.

Actually, those 2 to one and three to one numbers are movies sold, not players… I should have been more clear on that probably. And yes there’s a chance there will be a dual format in the end, if no side pulls ahead soon that’s probably what will happen. But if one side gets an advantage, none of the big studios can afford to stay exclusive to just one side… but as long as high definition media sales are in the numbers of a few percent of DVD sales, nobody loses that much by supporting the “wrong” side. Without consumer support both sides are wrong.

As for Apple choosing sides this macworld expo, odds are they will pick blu-ray… since Apple has been listed [URL=http://www.blu-raydisc.com/general_information/Section-14009/Index.html]here[/URL] since 2005… and I think Pixar’s movies (and Disney’s for that matter) are Blu-Ray exclusive so if they’re going to support a single format that would be it.

Jordan - 04 January 2008 09:43 AM

That’s big.  All the major product trendwhores will follow Apple’s suit.

I don’t know about that.. there’s lots of technologies that Apple has adopted that utterly failed in the market. DVD-RAM leaps to mind.

Is there any advantage to one over the other out of curiosity? I know the PS3 has all sorts of issues with loading times in games, but I’m assuming that’s not a movie issue.

Auron - 04 January 2008 07:38 PM

Is there any advantage to one over the other out of curiosity? I know the PS3 has all sorts of issues with loading times in games, but I’m assuming that’s not a movie issue.

Short story: no

Long story: yes

Blu-Ray was originally the only one with 1080p, but HD-DVD changed that. So that’s no difference anymore. HD-DVD has a mandatory ethernet port for internet connection to use for “amazing online features” on the discs. Blu-Ray has larger capacity per layer and mandatory lossless sound on the discs instead… I think you can delve as deep into details as you want…. but in the end it doesn’t matter much, they’re more or less equal. Most Blu-Ray players support 1080p though, while the cheaper HD-DVD players stop at 720p/1080i usually. But if you go to the same cost as the Blu-Ray players, they support 1080p as well. Early HD-DVD movies don’t have 1080p either due to the later addition of the resolution… at least I think.

More news from Ars today: Warner leaves neutral ground and drops support for HD-DVD. I have no commentary either way, just wanted to share the link.

Same with that Apple story, too. Of course Apple adopting one or the other isn’t going to change much, it’s just something to read.

First of all, yeah, Warners jumping ship on HD-DVD is huge news in this format war.
Secondly, Whale, you need to re-check your facts.

If you read around, apparently, Warners jump to exclusively support Blu-ray is in word only and not contract based. Sony paid them some heavenly sum to do so, a loyalty agreement, they call it. This is different than what the HD-DVD consortium did to Paramount/Dreamworks or like Sony originally did to FOX. Those are exclusive contract-based agreements, legal, signed on the dotted line, etc. In any case, Warners will continue to support HD-DVD until May of this year ... if that means anything at this point.

This move has taken the already lopsided support battle to another level. Sony / Blu-ray has basically everyone in bed with them from a movie studio perspective, a ton of companies on the home electronics market, while Dell and Apple are on the computer side of support. HD-DVD is backed by MS and HP on the computer front, likewise the rest of the companies on the home electronics market. Their exclusive movie studio support consists of Universal (NBC, Focus Features, Rogue Pictures all under their umbrella), Paramount (which includes Viacom, Nickelodeon, MTV Films, DreamWorks Pictures* and Animation) and The Weinstein company (the dudes who owned / split from Miramax, own Dimension Films) backing them. * Not counting any Steven Spielberg material as he owns the rights to his own stuff.

As for Apple, they weighed in a long time ago. They’ve been with Blu-ray from the start. MS is a major backer of HD-DVD and Apple isn’t going to agree with MS on many things. After all, it’s the nature of the computer biz, their competitors, no surprises here. Only New Line Cinema and HBO are the non-exclusive players now that Warners is gone. HD-DVD jumped out to an early lead with porn with the majority of the major fuck studios supporting them, but you’ll see Blu-ray catch up in this regard. However I think something really noteworthy is how HD-DVD has major backing in Europe from studios across the seas. A lot of movie studio titles that are exclusive to Blu-ray in North America have a HD-DVD release in Europe ... and since, HD-DVD doesn’t really use region coding, you can import these discs.

As for player sales numbers, the PS3 has made reading between the lines very hard. If you include them, it’s definitely in Blu-ray’s favor. If you only count stand alone players, HD-DVD was winning at the end of the 2007 season by what I’ve read. Which really isn’t surprising if you compare stand alone HD-DVD costs to Blu-ray player prices. What kind of accessory/movie attachment rate these two formats have is the real tell. The sad thing might be how the PS3 is actually the best BD player on the market right now - as far as BD profile support, price, and load times go. Well maybe outside of that professional line Sony BD player that fetches over a grand, yeah, $1000 for a BD player.

As for 1080i and 108op, the difference between the two is minuscule - especially on a set 50” or bigger. The whole point is made rather moot too if you have a decent HD set or receiver that can upconvert the digital signal. A signal encoded at 1080i contains the same amount of information that a 1080p signal carries - it’s just a matter of how it’s been displayed and the set’s native resolution.

On the topic of formal specs, the HD-DVD guidelines require ethernet ports not so much for “amazing online features”, but so they can receive firmware updates down the road. A feature that should be mandatory on Blu-ray drives too since they are playing with Java and there already seems to be some rumbling discontent concerning incompatibilities and load times. The one thing you can’t ignore is yes, Blu-ray does have the largest disc capacity available at the current stage of the game. There has been talk of triple layered HD-DVD discs, but if that ever comes to fruition, especially now, is anyone’s guess. Blu-ray’s specs do not require a disc to have a “mandatory lossless” audio track. They are however required to support typical Dolby Digital AC-3, DTS, and linear uncompressed PCM playback. Support for HD compressed, lossless or lossy, audio sources such as DD Plus or DTS HD are optional.

Gaming-wise, I don’t think it has effected much in the big picture sense. I’m glad MS had the sense to not get involved in the format war and kept the HD-DVD component as an optional add-on for the 360 and not built-in. It would have driven up the cost of the system, not to mention add the “what-ifs” if it failed. Sony battled back from PS3 pricing, the initial loss of dualshock, the backwards compatibility PR nightmare fiasco and can rest easy on any lingering “what-ifs” if their war victory pans out. Good games worth buying a PS3 for are still very much a necessity though.

Where it goes from here ... well, it seems like a lot of people are throwing in the towel for HD-DVD now that Warner is going to jump ship and have officially put the crowd on Blu-ray’s head. Is this the very end of it? I doubt it. Even if at this stage, Blu-ray wins out, they still have to battle for market penetration. Plus the popular thought that the future of HD is on demand DL service can’t be far off in the brain ... but otherwise, you got to give it to Sony finally. Through the ownership of multiple companies, paying off companies they didn’t own or control for support and getting into business with the right people, pushing their format/agenda, they might actually win a format war for once.

As for myself, I just got on board with HD-DVD after Christmas. I wasn’t planning on buying into / getting caught in the middle of a format war for a multitude of reasons - cost, burnt out on movies & tv in general, but pricing and timing worked out right. I’m just glad I didn’t pull the trigger in mid-December when sales were going on, who needs a $300 paperweight. Luckily I got in on a Boxing Day door crasher sale and got a player, the Toshiba HD-D3 and two free pack in movies for only $100 CDN and so far, I like what I see. Now if I plop down for the PS3 sooner or later, then I’ll have Blu-Ray too and then maybe I can do an actual comparison in-home. As is stands right now from what I’ve seen, heard, know - I like the standards behind HD-DVD over Blu-ray myself. Worst case scenario I’m out a hundred dollar purchase if HD-DVD bites the dust which I won’t cry over because of the original value and if for some reason Blu-ray fizzles out, the PS3 will still play games.

Lastly, lol, I apologize for the length of this post. I had to splice it into two parts - I guess there’s a word maximum per post?

In any case, I’m pretty engaged on this subject right now, especially having come here from ranting off at xbox360fanboy.com on this very subject and seeing this post, I thought there were some things that needed replying too.

Fact, Blu-Ray is the gayest name for a piece of technology since the Apple Pippin. HD-DVD sounds like a real man’s format.

I’ve stated that dual players are the devil because they promote the proliferation of two formats and prolongs the inevitable but:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136133

Notable you’ll need windows to use it, as you can only author Blu-Ray on the Mac.

“A signal encoded at 1080i contains the same amount of information that a 1080p signal carries - it’s just a matter of how it’s been displayed and the set’s native resolution.” Minus 540 lines vertical resolution per frame, halving the vertical resolution of 1080p. The reason why the PS2 could produce 1080i video was because the hardware was capable of PAL 576 progressive, which has the same vertical resolution. Quite literally 1080i is /2 the pixel resolution of 1080p, hence why its so demanding and sought after. 1080i only displays roughly .1 MP more than 720p.

1080i is the devil’s format and never should have been included in the HD spec.  Its a legacy spec that was tacked on for CRTs as it was more effort to prevent flicker for p frames as you’d be operating on a 30 Hz cycle as opposed to 60 Hz.  LCD and PLasma variants do not have screen flicker so it becomes a moot point as there’s no resolution gains to be had. The ATSC board fucked up on the foresight to predict that other technologies would end CRTs, and allotting for future bandwidth like lossless audio codecs for surround sound and making 1080p an official draft spec. 720p and 1080p are the only two needed HDTV rezes needed.

The assumption of post processing also was disturbingly left out as the 1080p spec should have been mandated for the optical formats, so any said movies would be scaled down to the resolution of said hardware. So only a 1080p version of a movie would appear on the shelf and the play could scale to 720p if the display supported it, and 720p for releases which either transfers won’t benefit the rez increase or weren’t shot on 1080p. The mass amounts of brainlessness on the HD wars hurt the consumer to the point only nerds on messagesboards with too much free time really have a fundamental grasp of

I’m still on the sidelines. I hate to say it but a healthy internet connection and bit torrent is the easiest way to enjoy HD, that is until all the platforms have a few HD-DVD and Blu-Ray playing options, everyone has HDCP capable displays (Most of my friends have HDTVs, only my bro and one friend has HDCP on their TV).